Remaking rule

Like some users have recently stated their discomfort with the current remaking rule, it's almost compulsory for me to review it in order to attain a more sensible alternative that satifies a greater majority.

This poll is made bacause we, moderators, have been unable to define the rule in a way we all like, so we have decided to follow the most democratic way : to make this decision public and take into consideration your decision.

This is the present remaking rule :

Remaking

* You may remake/leave a game if game status is other than 5v5, 5v4 or 4v4
* You may remake/leave a game if game status is other than 5v5 and the team scores are 0-0 and game has lasted no longer than 7 minutes.
* Users who have been afk/idle for a total of 5 minutes or more count as leavers when determining game status.
* You are not allowed to forfeit.
* At any time during a game you can vote to remake/cancel a game. In order to remake/leave the game, the majority of all players must agree, including those in the opposite team.
* Only users who confirm that they wish to remake/cancel the game count. Users who do not reply count as having voted to play on.
* If you remake/leave a game after a voting, you MUST save the replay in order to be able to prove that the majority of all players agreed, otherwise you will get banned if someone reports you!
* The host of a game has no special rights to decide when to remake/cancel a game. Hosts remaking a game without fullfilling the criteria stated above will be counted as LEAVERS!

The most spread suggestion for the rule is to remove the requirement of 0-0 game status in the second section, this would allow users to freely leave the game without voting in situations like when the 'firstblooded' leaves the game or there's a disconnection in early stages of the game.

So my proposition will be like that :

Remaking

* You may remake/leave a game if game status is other than 5v5, 5v4 or 4v4 ( Same as the leaving rule , I guess we can remove this line )
* You may remake/leave a game if game status is other than 5v5 and has lasted no longer than 7 minutes.
* Users who have been afk/idle for a total of 5 minutes or more count as leavers when determining game status.
* You are not allowed to forfeit.
* At any time during a game you can vote to remake/cancel a game. In order to remake/leave the game, the majority of all players must agree, including those in the opposite team.
* Only users who confirm that they wish to remake/cancel the game count. Users who do not reply count as having voted to play on.
* If you remake/leave a game after a voting, you MUST save the replay in order to be able to prove that the majority of all players agreed, otherwise you will get banned if someone reports you!
* The host of a game has no special rights to decide when to remake/cancel a game. Hosts remaking a game without fullfilling the criteria stated above will be counted as LEAVERS!

Many of us have seen fit to establish the boundary in the 7th minute because we believe it is a neither short enough nor long enough span of the game, 10 minutes for example would be too much and 5 minutes would be too less.

You all might have other suggestions for this rule. dont be shy and post them.

Edit:

I know the options in the poll are too broad but it couldnt be narrowed down because I can't add every suggestion to the poll (I dont know what suggestion might come up) and some suggestions may be proposed after voting so if someone casted his/her voted already he/she won't be able to change it.

In other words this isn't just a Yes/No poll, you have to manifest the way you'd like to see the rule changed. This poll is more like a brainstorming, then all suggestions will be gathered and a new poll will be opened to see what's the best alternative.

to sum it up...
the only thing that would be changed is: no matter which score,you are allowed to leave when game state is other then 5v5 and game time is under 7 minutes.

yeah fully support.because no matter which score.to play a leaver game after 5 minutes for example is like playing whole game from start in 4vs5 mode.



EDIT:
How about this:

you may leave/remake a game if the game state is 5vs3 only if all players of the team with 5 players voted for "i dont want to switch" (would make the "switch on" mode as a rule)

Reason: There are many games which could be still be really fair after a switch,which are ruined with the leaves after 5v3 game state.

FF allowed when a WHOLE team wants to end the game but they can`t rmk or leave since in the vote none of the opposite team voted yes for rmk.

@jigg: I never have SO as I really do not see any reasons to put one of those guys who made the game in the opposite team. it is a bout team win, not about 5 player solo winning. So I really see no reason. 5vs4 switching doesnt make sense and 5vs3 is free to rmk, no matter what others think... why switch for a balanced game if you can aswell rmk a new game with 4 on 4 of those teams and 2 additional players, one in each team, but without those leavers/DCers from before?

I made it a little weird, but I think you can follow my point.

Jigg4 wrote:

EDIT:
How about this:

you may leave/remake a game if the game state is 5vs3 only if all players of the team with 5 players voted for "i dont want to switch" (would make the "switch on" mode as a rule)

Reason: There are many games which could be still be really fair after a switch,which are ruined with the leaves after 5v3 game state.

Mmmyeah, that won't happen. We can't make a rule which is specific of an optional game mode i.e. it only applies to some of the games. It would create a lot more work to define for us whether or not they could have switched, and also people would put the switch on in games without telling the players and some of them might not want to play a game with switch on.


As for the topic at hand; I agree that the suggested format is better than the current one (I actually usually remake when there's a leaver in like under 10 mins or so).

However, I have another suggestion for this: "You may remake/leave a game if game status is other than 5v5 and has lasted no longer than 7 minutes if there are no objections."

It'd be a smaller step to the same direction.

@GanymeDes
Thumbs up for your suggestion.

@fenix136
Tell me this:
I am on the loosing team, and I suggest FF on Allies channel. They all agree, so we vote in All channel: FF guys!
And out of nowhere, they go farm, they go to kill Roshan, even if we all agreed not to defend, so they can finish it faster. And then, just THEN, they come to our fountain, Pudge hooks us, VS swaps, and they prolong the game for another 20 minutes. I go AFK, for I have agreed on a fast finish, go smoke a blunt, make a cup of coffee, and come back, see the game is still on, they passed the third line of towers, and are literally FUCKING WITH US, while we wait for them to finish.
What in cases such as this one?

True, forfeiting shouldn't be allowed at all. Just think about it,what's the difference between remaking a game just because the losing team wants that and leaving?

agreed. we just changed the rules so it is not allowed not to defend. the point is: if all in one team agree not to defend, you are so close to just remaking... I usually just try to defned, but go alone. that is not feeding on purpose, but it has a similar effect. sometiems I am even able to kill one guy, but in the end my whole team is wiped out for almost a minute and in that time there creeps alone should be able to finish. srsly, we are talking about so few minutes that we shouldnt make any rule about it. it would be:

all have to vote and agree for the FF, but then we are back to remaking... let the winnners take their time and enjoy it, it they need it. go smoke, if you really want it, but always be aware that staying afk for a total of 5 minutes might get you banned...

@gany: I dunno, I dont like changes, but what you suggested is a little to small for me. IF we want to change smth then lets do it correctly, dont you think? no objections... then we are back to voting... or close to it. lets say one kiddo wants to own hard as he is in the 5 ppl team... he will start crying and all will have to vote again. the kid will report, we will have to check the replay AGAIN and so on... I know the world should be better, but lets face it: we have enough young (and even older) players, who just dont play for fun, but for OWNAGE! it is not important what I think about it, but it is making this very hard then.

I think the suggestion in the first post (odo's) is good enough. this or the old one...

greetz,
WOT-writer

Guyz, i remind you that ff rule has been voted 4 times and it lost 75%-25% in every poll
So the the rule will not be added. We are not talking about it in the thread.
You should read the edited post of odo, it explains everything. No need to speak about ff here, we wont vote something that has been allready refused by the community


Here is my point of view:
Single player should not be allowed to decide whenever remake of no, no mater in the min 2 or in the min 22. It is not fair. What if in a game 4v5 min 6, 7 players want to go on playing and only 2 wants to remake ? Majority should win, that is the very basic principle of democracy.
So basically for me the rule that we can leave if we want in a game untill min. 7 if there is a leaver doesn't seem very acceptable. For me either we have to think of a better rule, or keep the old one.
I would go more with the Ganymedes proposal, who says that we can remake if there are no objections. The point is to define objections. I understand it like this:

We allways should vote for remake.
The differece is that votes in other way before min. 7.

Now it is

Quote :

Only users who confirm that they wish to remake/cancel the game count. Users who do not reply count as having voted to play on.

My proposal is

Quote :

Only users who confirm that they wish to remake/cancel the game count. Users who do not reply don't count. However if less than 51% of the current don't vote there is not sufficient quorum. There must be at least 1 player from both team to vote. In case of equal result the decision is in favour.
Time to vote - 1 min after the proposal for vote has been made in all chat

In this way we can:
If somebody leaves in a game 4v5 if only 6 players vote something then you will need majority from 6. Which is 4 yes. At least one "'yes" from every team. If 3 yes and 3 - no(with 1 yes from both teams) we rmk


This is something i figured not long ago, its stil rudimental so it may change.
But i feel it is fair enough

Guys, here's a suggestion regarding the suggestion-making:
The poll is very simple, should there be changes or not?
So, let's just vote, explain why we voted yes/no, and let the administration make the changes the way the best suites for everyone (if the final outcome is more votes FOR changes).
Just describe a situation or two where you had your part, or witnessed it, and let the administration decide what's best for all of us. I don't say that they are perfect, nor the rules, but, in the end, this is why we are having this discussion.
Greetings..

You may remake/leave a game if game status is other than 5v5 and has lasted no longer than 7 minutes. - It si much faier than the current rule. Unsupport fpr GanymeDes and street_dog. Ppl dont like to play whole game 4v5 if they are in team with 4 players. And is stupid to expect objectivity.

MUKY for president, not cuz ur tits but cuz the way u think. And one question: Whats the diff batween 7th and like 11th minute? Why 7? So if leaver leaves @ 8min 21sec im still FORCED to play a 99% (unless they are 5 tards) alrdy lost game? It gets even worse now, we MUST def?? wtf? if my scenario happens (which does happen often) now i cant even afk in base and let the happy tards win in 20, but i have to "play" for 50 mins even if i know we lost it? Why would i be so kind to few kids and let them have all the fun? Seriously, what the fuck?

And, 5v4 is never BALANCED unless the 5player team are complete no brainers.

7 minutes = 2 mins before creeps spwan + 5 mins after or ? !

LepToN.. wrote:

7 minutes = 2 mins before creeps spwan + 5 mins after or ? !

When the timer in the top right corner shows 7:00

correct. the countdown before game starts doesnt count (down... HARHAR).

@NjuS: nothing new, we just added it to make it clear for nabs like you. it was ALWAYS: afking/idling is not allowed.

@Eunique rly? i alrdy knew that, moron. My point was that its the shitty rule.

Im replying u here, thugangel, cuz street_dog had a nice point.

Indeed, and also that rule bout "must def" fails cause, to be honest, u can allways "fake def" like going rambo vs them all and die instantly, which prolongs the push for only couple sec. And i never saw anyone got banned by doing it (and thats what most ppl do). Some even go afk, cuz of obvious thing: u lost. Its common sense. So as it is now, technically, u alone or someone with u (like it matters?) can go rambo and die in 5sec just so they proceed pushing, but u cant sit afk and let them finish? Whats the actual difference? I would like Eunique to elaborate on this subject cause hes so smart. So?

NjuS wrote:

MUKY for president, not cuz ur tits but cuz the way u think. And one question: Whats the diff batween 7th and like 11th minute? Why 7? So if leaver leaves @ 8min 21sec im still FORCED to play a 99% (unless they are 5 tards) alrdy lost game? It gets even worse now, we MUST def?? wtf? if my scenario happens (which does happen often) now i cant even afk in base and let the happy tards win in 20, but i have to "play" for 50 mins even if i know we lost it? Why would i be so kind to few kids and let them have all the fun? Seriously, what the fuck?

And, 5v4 is never BALANCED unless the 5player team are complete no brainers.

a clear border must be lined otherwise how will we know when to remake? it can't just be " ... and remake is done when common sense dictates". I'd love to say so actually, and I'd love setting every rule based on common sense but the problem is that there are as much 'common senseses' as users in this community and because of that it's impossible to leave this matter undetermined that's why a limit must be expressed, a moment where the game is not worth to be remade once surpassed because of farm , items or whatever, a moment where users can say "well i think we have chances to have a good game" , we might also say remake can't be done once every hero in the game has level six or the game cant be remade when every player has 30 creeps farmed but that's too complex and will only bring a painstaking control, not to mention is a bit senseless, so the best way I can think of to delimitate it is the time of the game and furthermore I say it should be the around the 7th minute because it isnt long enough to feel you're wasting your time, imagine the limit is the eleventh minute as you said , I personally wouldn't like playing a game for 10 frigging minutes and have to remake it shortly afterwards, i think everyone sees my point here.

The word 'around' may be the key because we must establish a limit but we have to make it clear and unclear at the same time. I also see very stupid to say that the limit is a certain minute and shortly beyond that minute the game can't be remade... so what if we say

You may remake/leave a game if game status is other than 5v5 and has lasted around 7 minutes .

It still makes it very limited but you coudln't say that right in the 8th minute you can't remake the game.
I think our 'common senses' are much more closer to each other on this matter.

@0do
I see the point...
Well, around 7 min, would be something like:
From 0 min 0 sec., till 7 (+/- 1 minute and 30 sec. (this is just a suggestion) so the team with a leaver can determine whether the game is up for a remake or not.
This is way is still limited, but the limit is flexible, so can either determine that the game is not worth playing right after someone leaves the game (comparing lanes, hero's items, levels, towers lost, SCORE, and determining players' skills). If all these statistics are against the odds of winning, AND is around 7 minute, then the game is up for a remake, if the 4-players team decides.
Yet again, if you think that the 3 players along with you, can outmatch, out-skill, out-wise the 5 players on the opposite side, give it a try, that's why the +/- stands for... If it's not working, and the time is still around minute 7 (+/- 1.30), then vote for remake.

Yes its limited and thats the reason i think 5v4 should be remake-able at any point (if the 4player team all agree) or at least go afk, cause as i said above, absolutely no difference in going into them 5, and simply afk - let them push. Would be simple and straight to the point rule. Also it would cause more ppl to report the leaver, 4player team cause of obvious reason, and 5player team cause of same reason And mb cause of the EXP they didnt got. Add it up with 30day Global ban (all hlrs) and it would make leavers think twice before they leave. But it could be that im missing something about why would it be "bad" rule tho

Haha ThugAngel87, it's much more easier to say "around 7th minute" than . "+/- 1 minute 30 seconds over 7th minute", and after all it's more or less the same.

But you were saying something I've been questioning all this time, that is if solely the team with the leaver has the voice to remake the game, and you were making my mind to support that believe but suddently you said "Yet again, if you think that the 3 players along with you, can outmatch, out-skill, out-wise the 5 players on the opposite side, give it a try,". That made me put on the shoes of the superior team aswell and I dont think the remaking capability should be sustained only from one team because I actually don't like playing an imbalanced game, no matter whether Im in the inferior team or not and It would be a bitch to me if the team with four players decides to go on.
Let's say you are playing with 2 friends and you two are very skilled and the four players you are facing decide to play on... you know they have little chances of winning and that's why the enemy team should vote too in every time a voting is involved.
But this a deviation from the topic where I actually want to remove the necessity of a voting when game status is other than 5v5 and has lasted around 7 minutes .

@0do
Key word in that sentence is THNK! If you THINK that you can outmatch them.
This means not only your opinion counts, but this is a common decision, a decision of the ENTIRE 4players team.
So if you think you can do that, you TRY it, that's the +/- timing I wrote (and like I said it was only a suggestion, it doesn't have to stand STRICT in the rules). During this time you try your chances: Gangs, pushing, farming, defending, ALL YOU CAN DO! Don't get me for granted, I know it's not THE BEST solution, but this way we can get close to the thing we all want.

And yes, whoever side you are on, it doesn't really matter, because it's not like the best game you have ever played, if you play against 4. It's certainly a good feeling when you are 4 and literally OWN the 5 players team. But still, you, like me, would rather enjoy loosing a 5v5 game, rather than winning 4 v 5 (no matter what side you are on).

^ Exactly

Aaah so you are talking about something like a trial, an extenden time where the four guys try to continue the game doing their best to see whether they stand a chance or not ? it's an interesting suggestion but I think it would be easier and better for users and moderators to directly remake the game ^_^ in my opinion that is going too deep in a problem that is easily solved by remaking but let's see what others have to say.

0doaker wrote:

Ah so you are talking about something like a trial, an extenden time where the four guys try to continue the game doing their best to see whether they stand a chance or not ? it's an interesting suggestion but I think it would be easier and better to directly remake the game ^_^ in my opinion that is going too deep in a problem that is easily solved by remaking it but let's see what others have to say.

Yeah, now I see from your point of view.. It will make a bigger mess, cuz of the "Common sense" factor, which is different within every player...